# Re: what is QRP

• Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: what is QRP
• From: Edward Cole <kl7uw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
• Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:11:43 -0900

```I'm coming into this discussion at mid-point, so making my apologies:

QRP as a term originated with low power ham stations on HF where
antenna gain is usually not that much.  Mostly HF QRPers are using
dipole or other wire antennas having little gain.  The definition of
HF QRP is <5w CW.

ON VHF (and satellites) antenna gain is easier to obtain due to the
smaller wavelength, so really one should combine transmitter power
with antenna gain to determine total RF power (technically, this is
called ERP).  If you have a significant length of coax cable (loss)
that should also be factored in.

You can do it two ways: convert everything into watts and ratios or
everything into dBw and dB's.
I would say the convention for satellite QRP has become 5w and less
than 6-dB:  that results in 5 x 4 = 20w ERP
or 7dBw + 6 dB = 13 dBw.

You may disagree with using 5w or the 6 dB gain figure, but QRP
should not be very high ERP in any case.
BTW the 3-element Arrow has about 6-dB gain.

For instance one would not consider 5w into a 16-foot dish on 1268 MHz as QRP:
The dish gain is ~ 32 dB or a ratio of approx 1585:1, so:
5 x 1585 = 7.9 kW ERP
7 dBw + 32 = 39 dBw

Note: that I have used gain over a dipole in these examples, whereas
normally space communication formula use dBi (isotropic gain).  1 dBd
= 2.15 dBi

Info that is probably useless:  My four 2m eme yagis provide 19.2 dBd
and I run about 125w at the antenna terminals thus my ERP= 10.4 kW
For eme this IS considered QRP since the norm is an ERP of 100 kW for
Moonbounce.

Perhaps it is better for satellite controllers to indicate what the
maximum in power and antenna gain a station should use for uplink,
then no one is required to know how to calculate ERP.

73, Ed - KL7UW

At 08:22 AM 12/18/2008, Jim Danehy wrote:
>QRP folks do not ESTIMATE . . . . go to a VHF UHF  convention and watch the
>antenna measurements  . . . . of course you can SPECULATE or GUESS  but that
>is the ambiguity that is introduced . . .  a more accurate means of
>measuring QRP is the measurement of output power that has been in use by the
>amateur community for the six decades I have been around . . . antenna gain
>measurement is not simple . . . it is the execution of the assembly and
>construction ( the devil is in the details ) of an antenna . . . keep the
>guess work out of it . . . there was an advertisement some years ago for the
>ALPHA  Amps . . .  "life is too short for QRP" . . . if the goal is to set
>aside a frequency or repeater for challenged signals (compromised antennas
>and low power rigs ) that is fine . . .  express it in the terms you want to
>convey . . . .  QRP for most of the amateur community is measuring 5 watts
>output at the rig . . .if you want : tell them HT use only with Arrow, Elk,
>eggbeater and vertical antennas  . . . . then you will effectively
>communicate your goal . .  if that is your goal . . . . QRP is not a
>relevant term  if you want to have a place for HTs with small compromised
>antennas . . . folks get lazy and use short cuts . . . unfortunately . . . .
>
>Jim W9VNE
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF" <nigel@ngunn.net>
>To: "Jim Danehy" <jdanehy@cinci.rr.com>
>Cc: <amsat-bb@amsat.org>
>Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 12:04 PM
>Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] what is QRP
>
>
> > QRP is not generally based on ERP.
> > It's usually taken to be 10W PEP SSB or 5W carrier power max for other
> > modes.
> >
> > I think QRP on sats used to be considered to be less than 10W ERP.
> > It's not difficult to estimate feeder loss and antenna gain.
> >
> >
> > Jim Danehy wrote:
> >> QRP is a measure of the transmitter output . . . on a practical basis how
> >> would an operator accurately measure the ERP  if you were using ERP
> >> (effective radiated power) as a QRP benchmark . . .  you would need
> >> instrumentation to measure the feedline losses and sophisticated
> >> instrumentation to measure the gain of an antenna . . . most of that type
> >> of instrumentation is beyond the average amateur radio operator . . . .
> >> but most do have access or use of a watt meter . . . . thus the simple
> >> way of calculating QRP . . . ERP is used primarily in satellite
> >> operations  because it affects the transponders (not FM repeaters) I have
> >> had several private emails in response to my comments about QRP . . . I
> >> have seen folks operate the CQ WW  CW contest in the QRP category with
> >> stacked beams or monoband beams . . . . I have never seen a definition of
> >> QRP that went into ERP . . . . they just use the transmitter output with
> >> all of the ambiguities that brings  . . .  have fun Jim W9VNE
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> > Nigel A. Gunn. G8IFF   W8IFF (have also held KC8NHF, M0NHF, 9H3GN)
> > 1865 El Camino Drive, Xenia, OH 45385-1115, USA   937 825 5032
> > e-mail nigel@ngunn.net             www  http://www.ngunn.net
> > Member of  ARRL, GQRP #11396, QRPARCI #11644, SOC #548,  Flying Pig #385,
> > Dayton ARA #2128,  AMSAT-NA   LM-1691,  AMSAT-UK, MKARS,  ALC
> > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> >
>
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