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Re::Another financial question/DOD

On 11 Mar 2005 at 10:27, Greg Dober wrote:

> For example, Bob Bruninga’s posts are always a joy to read
> because they are so informative about technical issues.  

Just to remind you there are some post not always related to 
technical issues. Here is one from the author you refer too. I have 
some others that i prefer to not repost here.

On 13 Dec 2004 at 16:15 Robert Bruninga wrote
>>> "Luc Leblanc VE2DWE" <luclebla@sorel-tracy.qc.ca> 12/13/04 
PM >>>
>AMSAT... hams .... are not idiots to a point to not again 
>understand that AMSAT never openly  mentionnned this 
>launch opportunity even if as someone says  "AMSAT 
>BOD was fully informed of the project and gave us their support"!
>Why they don't jump more on this?

Because it takes rockets and delicate people contacts 
to launch payloads, not hot air.

>As the year end come it seems the next era will be full of  
>"MISSED OPORTUNITIES".  While we will be seated we 
>will  see a lot of Borg cubes launched even empty hot air 
>space suits will  fly over us.

Again, its not what "they (AMSAT)" does, it is what we
all as individuals do.  If anyone hears of an opportunity
(not just a rumour and no point-of-contact) they should
put some time into digging out the needed contact info 
and doing all the leg work and background work instead
of just firring off an email in 30 seconds and then  expecting 
someone else ("AMSAT" volunteeers) to do all the work..

If one hears of an opportunity, they should persue it
as far as they can befor dumping it on somone else.
unless of course they can find someone to do the work
for them....


>Remember, those were not arguments, per se, but factual accounting

Ok for factual accounting but you stated:

"Are they making money?  My advise is don't get fooled by profit and
loss.  Compare cash and investments.  Because, if AMSAT saves 
$300,000 because of in-kind, and doesn't have to spend a dime from 
operations and can save it for future work, that's a great thing.  So 
my advice is to compare liquidity from year to year"

That's arguments because the variation in liquidity came from profit 
and loss. How can we understand theses variations if we cannot have a 
fair reporting of the financial transactions during a financial 

How a bank will evaluate AMSAT asking for a loan with an "in kind" 
revenue item? They can take the cash, securities, equipment, 
receivable ect to secure their loan but there is nothing to do with 
in kind service as they are only a subjective asset as hard to 
evaluate as your coal in a mine. Even coal in a mine can be resale 
for an XYZ amount 'in kind services" cannot be sold as ther are only 
an estimates of services rendered.

Your arguments related to in kind services are valuable but from my 
point of view AMSAT should put this in kind services in his annual 
report to show the value of the volunteers works evaluated in hours 
and a per hour rate.

It is clearly stated on the VRS web page section and i quote:

When you select a rate, please be conservative, but absolutely 

As an example: An Engineering PhD may figure he was doing entry level 
work on one project. We wouldn't want to use $250 an hour for a 
project that an engineer, fresh out of college, may be able to 
complete at a rate of $30.00 per hour. Please be as realistic as 

How any business can be run that way? " Please be as realistic as 
possible.." I still believe in a standard profit/loss annual report 
and again when i pay my membership fee i want to know how it is spent 
and how my donation is also spent.

I don't ask you to answer on those questions but BOD representatives 
should explain why if i take out the "in kind services" from the 2003 
revenue/expenses report i end up with a loss of 125265$ while an 
"unrestricted" gain of 292127$ appears on the 2003 annual report?

Another questioning point. Your argument " So my advice is to
compare liquidity from year to year. " fine but the in kind service 
"contributions" are included in the public support and revenue to 
establish a change in net assets of 285076. This amount is reported 
under the statements of cash flows "from operating activities" How an 
evaluated amount of work who was never been paid can be consider as a 
cash flow movement? There is no circulation of money here.

I understand you indicate it is not fair to only "expense" a 500000$ 
satellite but in a standard accounting procedures when we "expense" a 
good or a piece of equipment we transfer it under the balance sheet 
under the assets section and from my point of view it's the place to 
added the "in kind" services.

If we added to the satellite value the 417932$ in kind services (lets 
say here this was entirely devoted to the satellite work) our net 
asset value for this satellite will be 917932$ and on the 
depreciation  schedule we can depreciate it to reduce our profit but 
it is irrelevant here as AMSAT is a non profit organization who does 
not pay any tax on his profits. reflecting this depreciation in the 
cash flow is also irrelevant as there is no use for depreciation in a 
non profit organization.

This way we will reflect the in kind contributions without 
artificially increasing the year end gain or reducing the year end 

We can make numbers tell different things but making them 
representing reality as close as possible is the way to go..

I think here some a mixed up with 100% charitable organizations 
accounting and non profit club organization accounting. I understand 
if AMSAT wants to be on the charitable donations lists providers he 
should present a favourable charitable face full of in kind services 
from volunteers.

A final note for those who prefer to read technical post only. You 
are not honest with yourself if you read this and see my smily 

Luc Leblanc VE2DWE
Coordonnateur AMSAT Quebec coordonnator
AMSAT 33583
Sent via amsat-bb@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
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