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Re: Re: TS-2000X

on 2/4/03 5:45 PM, kevin schuchmann at kschuchm@pacbell.net wrote:

> well Jon lets tackle this one by one...


> sure you did... you implied that if a person has it cranked all the way down
> and he is still too loud, its not his fault.... then
> who's fault is it????  there are many ways to lower your output even more...

It's not a fault of anyone.  As another person pointed out, it may not be so
easy to off point a dish with a dual feed.  I also later corrected myself to
say that the station in question really wasn't as loud as the beacon.
Perhaps he was too loud, but my point is that it's easy to sit back and
point fingers at someone's setup w/o really knowing what they can or cannot
do.  The entire point I raised in the original post was that it was
impressive that someone with minimum power could be that strong.  I don't
think it hurt anyone that he was.  That's just my opinion and you could
disagree with me.  So be it.  You don't have to work me if you hear me

>> But to say that I am not hearing well is just ludicrous.  I hear the beacon
>> at a level of S7 to S8.  I am able to copy just about anyone on the bird
>> including guys at the noise floor.  Perhaps its due to the fact that I work
>> a lot of weak stations on HF and don't expect the bird to sound like my
>> local FM repeater.
> I had that setup... your not hearing that well.... someday you will figure it
> out on your own...

This is what I object to.  Someone telling me what my setup does.  Yet I've
given plenty of evidence to state that I can hear.
>> Now conventional theory is that each S unit is about 6 dB.  But let's throw
>> that out the window because it's probably just not accurate.  Let's say that
>> each S unit is more akin to 2 dB.  OK, if I hear the beacon at S8, then a
>> station 10 dB below the beacon would be at S3.  I hear virtually NO ONE but
>> some L band stations that loud.  Most guys are at S1 or S2 at best.  Perhaps
>> you in your Boy Scout wisdom will counter that my S-meter is not linear.
>> Perhaps not.  After all, you know what I hear and my system better than I
>> do.
>> Let's see, last night I worked CT1BOY quite easily.  Squint was around 20
>> degrees.  For him, the bird was barely above the horizon.  Gee, I thought I
>> couldn't hear.  Yet, his signal was solid and quite comfortable.
> the fact that you worked ct1boy means nothing unless we know how loud he
> was....
The fact proves that I heard the guy.  He was well below the beacon.  But
that's not good enough for you is it?

> most s meters are not linear, mine is but only up to s9 and it is 3db per s
> unit...
I never said they weren't linear.  If they are 3 dB per S-unit than my point
is even stronger.  I'll assume your numbers.  If my S-meter like yours is
linear up to S9 and it's 3 dB per S-unit, then let's look at the numbers:

I receive the beacon at S8.  At 3 dB per S-unit, this means my noise floor
or S0 let's call it is 24 dB below the beacon.  If the recommended downlink
level is 10 dB below the beacon, then a signal that is at S4 is 2 dB below
that level.  Yet, there are VERY few stations at S4!

Now, my statement assuming a 2 dB value per S-unit was a more worst case
scenario than your 3 dB number.  So if you are correct, then I am doing far
better than what you say.

>> No doubt.  And part of ham radio is all about improving one's station over
>> time.  So what S-level do you receive the beacon?  It's not all the
>> meaningful from receiver to receiver, but it's the only relative measure we
>> have.  Telling me you are 18 to 20 dB above the noise floor is great, but I
>> have no reference to that.
> here jon you really show you dont know what your talking about... I listed it
> in db so you would know exactly what I meant
> unless you know how many db per s unit my rig is its pointless...
> so duh... if your s meter is 6 per then the beacon 3 to 3.5 s units above the
> noise floor
> but on my rig its 6 s units above the noisefloor see how its more meaningful
> to list it in db???
No, it's not a problem.  It's all relative.  dB is a dimensionless unit and
is itself meaningless unless referenced to something else.  If we each
follow what works best for our particular rigs than we have nothing to worry

> Jon you need the best recieve you can get....
> I strongly suggest you point your setup to cold sky... adj your noise floor
> thru attenuation to s0
> then point your bbq grill at the sat when the xpondr is on and its at 59k and
> tell us how many s units
> your noise floor rises...
> I would  bet little or none...
> so guess waht your not hearing the xpondr noisefloor therefore your missing
> stuff

If this is true then Kevin, the fact is that there are a lot of people then
running BELOW the recommended signal level.  Why do they do that?  Because
they have a sense of self-righteousness about it?  I'll admit that I doubt I
hear the xponder noise floor.  I never said I did.  But I have always said I
easily hear people 10 to 15 dB below the beacon.  But you seem to doubt this
case.  If two guys with 6 foot dishes can hear each other fine and be 0.5 dB
above the noise floor because of their dishes, they shouldn't expect someone
who has a 3 foot dish to be able to hear them and know they are there.

The recommended downlink level is there for a reason.
>>>> Have I tripped Leila before?  Yes, I have.  But yet, I've done it when
>>>> running only a few watts.  Oh yeah, shame on me.  40 elements on the UHF
>>>> uplink is too many.  Leila, IMHO, tends to trip sometimes when it
>>>> shouldn't.
>>>> We all know that.  So while it's a good judge of your power, it's not 100%
>>>> reliable either.  The vast majority of stations on AO-40 do a very decent
>>>> job of staying below the beacon.  Yes, the L-band guys are generally
>>>> stronger, but that's not necessarily their fault.  The L-band receiver on
>>>> the satellite just tends to work better.
> angain there you go its not their fault... then who's fault is it???

I've said time and time again that I feel the AGC on U band does not
function as good as the AGC on L band.  I'm not the only one who feels this
way either.  Now perhaps it's because there's people who are creaming the
AGC and ruining it for everyone else, perhaps its because of the ground
radar problem.  There's just something different about the way L band
signals sound and function on the downlink even when they are not overly

> I ignored nothing yes U agc pumps more... so strong U banders hose each other
> more than L banders hose each other

And that can be a problem for everyone on U band even those who aren't
running excessive power.


Jon Ogden
NA9D (ex: KE9NA)

Citizen of the People's Democratic Republik of Illinois

Life Member: ARRL, NRA
Member:  AMSAT, DXCC

http://www.qsl.net/na9d   <- Updated on 1/22/03!!!

"A life lived in fear is a life half lived."

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