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Re: Re: TS-2000X

well Jon lets tackle this one by one...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Ogden" <na9d-2@speakeasy.net>
To: "kevin schuchmann" <kschuchm@pacbell.net>; "Amsat BB" <amsat-bb@AMSAT.Org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: TS-2000X

> on 2/4/03 8:22 AM, kevin schuchmann at kschuchm@pacbell.net wrote:
> >>
> >>> Not guilty??...give me a break... you dont need a 14 foot dish to uplink to
> >>> AO40 on L band, if you use one fine... if your beacon
> >>> level turn it down, cant go any lower? then DUH guess you shouldnt be using
> >>> a
> >>> 14 foot dish on uplink and yes you are guilty.....
> >>> ever hear of a attenuator???
> >>
> >> Gee, perhaps the guy has one setup for EME and AO-40.  It's not so easy to
> >> add attenuation in just one path.
> >
> > and how is that ao40's problem????? its the operators problem...
> > this is almost a social issue... everything is someone elses problem these
> > days... not mine...
> I NEVER said it was AO-40's problem.  In fact, there's no problem at all.
> Yes, it's an issue if there's a lot of people on and the transponder power
> is being hogged by one or two guys.  But the facts are that there's
> generally only a handful of Qs going on at any one time.  Last night, I
> called CQ for a good while and never had anyone come back.  I think there
> were maybe 4 Qs going on total not counting any CW as I wasn't looking for
> that.

sure you did... you implied that if a person has it cranked all the way down and he is still too loud, its not his fault.... then
who's fault is it????  there are many ways to lower your output even more...

> >
> >>> and from what I have seen both sides are guilty...  so I wouldnt go finger
> >>> pointing .....
> >>
> >> Oh yeah, I'm one of those people who are running a BBQ dish.  I'm not
> >> supposed to be able to hear well....Yet, I hear fine.  Work stations all the
> >> time when squints are above 20 degrees.
> >
> > I have had a bbq grill, 50 element looper, 3 foot dish ,4.5 foot dish, and 6
> > foot dish....
> > maybe your not hearing as well  as you think you are....
> Huh?  Is my receive set up perfect?  No.  Yet I see a lot of people claim
> that a 60 cm solid dish will give far better results than a 3 foot by 2' BBQ
> dish.  Yet, 60 cm is approximately 2 feet.  Other than the fact that the
> solid dish provides CP and perhaps a better, feed, the area of the BBQ dish
> is significantly larger.  I plan on changing the feed and making the BBQ
> dish into a CP capable reflector once the WX warms up.  I certainly want to
> improve my SNR.
> But to say that I am not hearing well is just ludicrous.  I hear the beacon
> at a level of S7 to S8.  I am able to copy just about anyone on the bird
> including guys at the noise floor.  Perhaps its due to the fact that I work
> a lot of weak stations on HF and don't expect the bird to sound like my
> local FM repeater.

I had that setup... your not hearing that well.... someday you will figure it out on your own...

> Now conventional theory is that each S unit is about 6 dB.  But let's throw
> that out the window because it's probably just not accurate.  Let's say that
> each S unit is more akin to 2 dB.  OK, if I hear the beacon at S8, then a
> station 10 dB below the beacon would be at S3.  I hear virtually NO ONE but
> some L band stations that loud.  Most guys are at S1 or S2 at best.  Perhaps
> you in your Boy Scout wisdom will counter that my S-meter is not linear.
> Perhaps not.  After all, you know what I hear and my system better than I
> do.
> Let's see, last night I worked CT1BOY quite easily.  Squint was around 20
> degrees.  For him, the bird was barely above the horizon.  Gee, I thought I
> couldn't hear.  Yet, his signal was solid and quite comfortable.

the fact that you worked ct1boy means nothing unless we know how loud he was....

most s meters are not linear, mine is but only up to s9 and it is 3db per s unit...

I was never a boy scout to suggest otherwise is an insult probably to the boy scouts...

> > I know that my
> > receive setup
> > is so much better than when I started, yet I had plenty of qso's on the bbq
> > depending on which antenna I'm using I get 6-9 db of xpondr noise and the
> > beacon is 18-21 db above that
> >
> No doubt.  And part of ham radio is all about improving one's station over
> time.  So what S-level do you receive the beacon?  It's not all the
> meaningful from receiver to receiver, but it's the only relative measure we
> have.  Telling me you are 18 to 20 dB above the noise floor is great, but I
> have no reference to that.

here jon you really show you dont know what your talking about... I listed it in db so you would know exactly what I meant
unless you know how many db per s unit my rig is its pointless...

so duh... if your s meter is 6 per then the beacon 3 to 3.5 s units above the noise floor
but on my rig its 6 s units above the noisefloor see how its more meaningful to list it in db???

> >>
> >> In my experience on AO-40, I find VERY few people running anywhere near the
> >> beacon.  Supposedly, the "experts" say that a BBQ dish doesn't cut it.
> >> Well, it does.  I get the beacon very loud and can work stations down to the
> >> noise floor.  Most stations are a couple dB above the noise floor but they
> >> are WAY more than 10 dB below the beacon.  I've never heard anyone calling
> >> CQ on top of the beacon.  It's so loud, I can't believe anyone with any kind
> >> of S band antenna can't hear it.
> >
> > I have heard cq on the beacon... have reported it to the irc channel and
> > others have heard it...
> > and it has happened more than once...  would you like callsigns???
> Well, then they must have squat for a receive set up if they can't hear the
> beacon or they just must be incredible lids.  I could probably hear the
> beacon just fine and CW for that matter if I used my corner reflector for
> AO-40 as opposed to my dish!  It's either that or they just don't know how
> to operate.  Perhaps they have some desense problems when they transmit and
> can't hear their downlink.  Perhaps they have no idea of where they are.
> They may actually be able to hear just fine, but have other problems.
> Yet so quick we are to say that most people can't hear squat.  I think
> that's a very silly attitude and when people with simple setups read that it
> will scare them away from ever even trying to get on AO-40.  If I didn't
> know better, my common perception from reading statements like yours is that
> you need a much more sophisticated setup.  This is one of the reasons why I
> took the survey of people who are using the AIDC downconverters.  Many
> people are using them on BBQ dishes or Primestar style dishes and are having
> fine results.  I'll be compiling my results soon and I think it will show
> that the "common" Boy Scout wisdom is not quite so accurate.
again im not a boy scout...

if S1 was in use I could agree with you about setup but its not...

Jon you need the best recieve you can get....
I strongly suggest you point your setup to cold sky... adj your noise floor  thru attenuation to s0
then point your bbq grill at the sat when the xpondr is on and its at 59k and tell us how many s units
your noise floor rises...
I would  bet little or none...
so guess waht your not hearing the xpondr noisefloor therefore your missing stuff

> >
> >>
> >> Have I tripped Leila before?  Yes, I have.  But yet, I've done it when
> >> running only a few watts.  Oh yeah, shame on me.  40 elements on the UHF
> >> uplink is too many.  Leila, IMHO, tends to trip sometimes when it shouldn't.
> >> We all know that.  So while it's a good judge of your power, it's not 100%
> >> reliable either.  The vast majority of stations on AO-40 do a very decent
> >> job of staying below the beacon.  Yes, the L-band guys are generally
> >> stronger, but that's not necessarily their fault.  The L-band receiver on
> >> the satellite just tends to work better.

angain there you go its not their fault... then who's fault is it???

> >
> > Jon its entirely their fault, I can run my U or L from the noise floor to
> > beacon level
> > I'm in control of my station... I really disagree that its not their fault if
> > they are too strong...
> So you ignore the fact that the U band AGC tends to pump a lot more than the
> L band AGC even though the L band signals are much stronger?  Look at the
> telemetry from the bird.  And I've noticed that when there is a lot of
> activity on the bird, the U band receiver has difficulty.  I noticed that
> the first day I got on AO-40 and there weren't a lot of people running
> excess power.  Perhaps it has to do with the ground radar issues and that it
> tends to compress the AGC.  I don't dispute that you are in control of your
> station.  So am I and I operate accordingly.  And I think you take my words
> out of context.  I firmly believe that the L band RX on the bird works much
> better than the U band RX and that is one of the reasons the L band ops have
> better signals.

I ignored nothing yes U agc pumps more... so strong U banders hose each other more than L banders hose each other

now you want to discuss the facts or attack me personally????

> 73,
> Jon
> NA9D
> -------------------------------------
> Jon Ogden
> NA9D (ex: KE9NA)
> Citizen of the People's Democratic Republik of Illinois
> Life Member: ARRL, NRA
> Member:  AMSAT, DXCC
> http://www.qsl.net/na9d   <- Updated on 1/22/03!!!
> "A life lived in fear is a life half lived."

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