[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next] - [Date Index][Thread Index][Author Index]

RE: was Arcjet, was solid boosters, now airplanes



Lets put this oceanic flying paranoia to bed once and forever.

There are NO modern (last 40 years) two engine airline aircraft,
passenger or freight, that cannot continue to fly from take-off
until fuel exhaustion without having to land. All these craft MUST
be able to lose the most critical motor DURING take-off (after a
critical decision speed but still on the ground) and continue into
the air, fully laden and climbing. All airfields have arrival and
departure procedures including engine-out cases. If the aircraft
cannot comply with those procedures it doesn't go there! Same applies
to the airways.

The ONLY requirement for two engine aircraft (ETOPS operations)
to be within 180 minutes (on one engine) of land is a buffer safety
factor. During that flight time the aircraft will be maintaining a high
altitude. Its weight will dictate what that will be but if it is not clear
of all terrain enroute then it will not be flying there, even on two
engines.
There are many other factors than an engine problem that might mean a
diversion for aircraft such as the B767. And the aircraft actually
uses less fuel on one engine than two so it can go further!

Icing, turbulence, storms etc. would be no more than an inconvenience
on one motor operation. Good airmanship means we would always avoid
extreme conditions, it plays havoc with the tummy, and spilt coffee stains.

A B747 once landed at Tokyo airport with only one motor going!
Don't blame the engineering - that was finger trouble. And on a
B747 one engine out does not mean an emergency nor does it
necessarily mean a shortening of the flight. At most operating
weights and altitudes the aircraft can maintain its height on three
engines. Prudent operation dictates a small decent for efficiency.
A B747 can fly quite happily on just two engines - not that its a
crew favourite, even in the simulator.

In 30 years of jet flying I have never had an engine problem. I have
flown over the Pacific more times than I care to remember and flown
longer flights than you might care to anticipate.

Despite all that, I believe it was Royce of Rolls Royce who, when
asked why he always flew on four engine aircraft, replied; "There
are no five engine ones."

Enjoy your flying, and leave your life vest under the seat. Remember
that Air Rage and Smoking are far more dangerous than an engine failure.

73, Terry,  ZL3QL. (Captain, Air New Zealand, B747-419)

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-AMSAT-BB@AMSAT.Org [mailto:owner-AMSAT-BB@AMSAT.Org]On
Behalf Of sco@sco-inc.com
Sent: Wednesday, 6 June 2001 08:42 AM
To: Ian Ashley
Cc: amsat-bb@AMSAT.Org
Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] was Arcjet, was solid boosters, now airplanes


At 06:47 AM 6/5/2001 , you wrote:
>Hi OM,
>I cannot let you keep miss-informing the list about B-767, B777, B737 type
>aircraft.

Like the 737 with the rudder control problems...?
(They have a saying, "s..t happens" - as we've seen recently tails fall off
DC-9s! Doors fall off 747s. Bombs get planted.)

>If you were in a B767 etc between LAX and HNL and one engine failed, I
doubt
>very much you as a passenger would even notice. The aircraft will descend,
>but in a fully controlled manner until it reaches it's single engine
>altitude (about 8000 feet for your fully laden example).
>Our aircraft (Air New Zealand), fly regularly from Tahiti to LAX, Tahiti
>HNL, AKL Tokyo etc, and we use the 180 minute rule, i.e. we must remain
>within 180 minutes of a suitable airfield.
>So please don't keep spreading urban myths that you will fall out of the
sky
>if an engine fails.
>73 de Ian ZL1AOX
>retired B747-400, 200, B767 etc Captain.

what about the case of the twin engine jet that lost one engine, there was
so much smoke in the cockpit that the crew shut down the good engine and
the plane crashed on approach?
WE CARRY SMOKE HOODS, GOGGLES AND 100% O2 TO COMBAT THIS PROBLEM. I CARRY
A FIRE-PROOF BAG THAT PERMITS VIEWING THE PANEL IN THICK SMOKE.

what about the 747 enroute to Alaska that flew thru the volcanic ash and
lost all four engines ..luckily they were able to restart them but there
was 80 million dollars of damage to the plane? IT HAPPENED OVER INDONESIA!
THE FLIGHT LANDED WITHOUT INCIDENT, NO ONE WAS INJURED. IT WAS ONLY URGENCY
THAT HAMPERED RESTART. ONCE THE AIRCRAFT DECENDED BELOW ABOUT 12,000FT THE
MOTORS RESTARTED. IT'S A PROCEDURE WE PRACTICE REGULARLY IN THE SIMULATOR.

around Tahiti there are many islands to land on or crash near. But there
are no islands between California and Hawaii ... just 2400 miles of water.
If a two engine plane looses one engine it can stay up ... but you then
have no safety backup and the nearest land maybe 1200 miles in any
direction.
MORE AROUND HONOLULU THAN NEAR TAHITI! THAT'S PART OF OUR ROUTE STRUCTURE
AND
WE ALSO FLY BOTH DIRECTION TO/FROM HONOLULU. NEVER LIKED THE IDEA OF PUTTING
DOWN ON JOHNSON ATOL.

How long does it take a 737, 767, or 777 to cover 1200 miles on one engine
(fully loaded) ... possibly with control damage? If the plane lost an
engine because of fire or lightning I think the passengers will notice.
I KNOW OF NO REPORTS OF LIGHTNING TAKING OUT AN ENGINE. THE ENGINE IS ALWAYS
ON FIRE, THAT'S HOW IT WORKS. ITS WHEN THE FIRE ESCAPES THE PROBLEMS START.
A B737 MUST STAY WITHIN 90 MINUTES OF A SUITABLE AIRFIELD. (SOME NEWER
VERSIONS MAY HAVE THIS EXTENDED WITH MORE RELIABLE ENGINES.) ALSO A PART OF
THE ETOPS OPERATION IS THAT THE AIRCRAFT SYSTEMS MUST BE CONSTANTLY
MONITORED.
SHORTLY AFTER TAKE-OFF AND AT THE END OF EACH FLIGHT ALL ENGINE PARAMETERS
ARE
SENT TO OUR ENGINEERING BASE WHERE THEY ARE AUTOMATICALLY CHECKED WITH THE
RECORDS FOR THAT AIRCRAFT. ANY DISCREPANCIES IMMEDIATELY ACTIVATE AN ALARM.
I WOULD (and have) RECEIVE A MESSAGE WITHIN MINUTES IF ANY PROBLEM APPEARED
OR WAS SUSPECTED. ANY ENGINE DISCREPENCIES ARE IMMEDIATELY REPORTED BY ACARS
TO OUR MAINTENANCE BASE.

I am just saying that I feel safer on a 3 or 4 engine airplane like a
L-1011 or B747 when over water for an extended length of time.
THAT'S FAIR ENOUGH BUT DON'T EVER CROSS THE ROAD, ITS FAR MORE DANGEROUS
THAN
FLYING IN ANYTHING.

The airlines want to use 2 engine planes to save them money.
THE PASSENGERS GENERATE THE DESIRE FOR ECONOMIES - COMPETITION DRIVES THE
AIRLINES.

----
Via the amsat-bb mailing list at AMSAT.ORG courtesy of AMSAT-NA.
To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe amsat-bb" to Majordomo@amsat.org



AMSAT Top AMSAT Home